Continuation rule

[mdmoran62]

this is a VERY VERY dangerous interpretation of the rule IMO. While I fully understand that the rules are written with the assumption that players won't cheat, this just seems to give such an easy out to any thrower who throws a turn after a call. "I heard the call and acknowledged it in my head, but my body couldn't catch up and stop." I'm a big fan of simplifying things to make them easier to implement. Making a throw is not acknowledging the call. Merely my opinion.

Of course, throwing is not acknowledging a call. I completely agree. Throwing a turn will still be a turn.

But that's not what the situation under discussion is about... to me, that seems very different than stopping a throw (because a call is being acknowledged), and then having the disc tumble out of the hand.

[mpefritz]

http://www.usaultimate.org/resources...ules.aspx#II.T

I think rotational qualities of the disc in question need to be addressed.

"Throw: A disc in flight following any throwing motion (including a fake) that results in the thrower losing contact with the disc. "

The drop down mentions non-spinning falling disc as not a throw.

"The act of throwing is the motion that transfers momentum from the thrower to the disc in the direction of flight and results in a throw. Pivots and wind-ups are not part of the act of throwing."

So did momentum get transferred to the disc in the direction of flight? Again, more info is needed.

The problem is that being in the act of throwing is not known until there is a throw. The stopping of the forward motion, the pulling back of the hand and disc, and the subsequent disc spinning ever so slightly as it moves backwards ever so much as it comes out of the hand would be a throw.

[commitch]

Rotation of the disc has absolutely nothing to do with something being a throw or not as it is not part of the definition of throw or act of throwing. A disc spinning or not spinning changes nothing, only it's direction of motion.

[mpefritz]

Rotation of the disc has absolutely nothing to do with something being a throw or not as it is not part of the definition of throw or act of throwing. A disc spinning or not spinning changes nothing, only it's direction of motion.

http://www.usaultimate.org/resources...ules.aspx#II.T

II.T: "Throw: A disc in flight following any throwing motion (including a fake) that results in the thrower losing contact with the disc. "

The annotation for "disc in flight" on the online rules says

....Generally, a non-spinning , falling disc is not "in flight" unless it is intentionally dropped.

I suspect these clauses allow a middle ground between what you are saying and what mdmoran is saying. If the thrower stopped the *apparent* throwing motion and pulled the disc back, if it is dropped in a way that it is not a throw, then no turnover since the thrower was acknowledging the call and since no throw was made, he was not in the act of throwing.

fritz -- thinking out loud and hating the "act of throwing" determination

[commitch]

"falling disc".... heavily doubt anyone's fake is straight down. A non-spinning disc moving straight forward when the fake (ie, throwing motion) is straight forward...is a throw. Again, focus on the direction of motion relative to the direction of the throwing motion.

[mpefritz]

Mitch,

I am in agreement with you for most of the plays that would be seen under the OPs premise. You can see me ask about momentum being transferred to the disc (which could be rotational or translational) as you bring up in your example where the disc is moving forward. That was not delineated by the OP.

There are some situations where the thrower stops the throwing motion, and the disc slips out and falls straight down in a non-spinning manner -- which fit the definition of NOT a throw. These would be no different than the thrower not faking, acknowledging the call, and then having the disc slip out of his hand as he gestures at the marker.

[mdmoran62]

I suspect we may not be picturing the same events...

Forward motion followed by the disc moving forward (whether release was intended, or not), is a throw.

Forward motion stopped, throwing motion stopped, and the disc then tumbling downwards, is not a throw.

The former would not clearly evidence the thrower acknowledging the call, and so the result of the "throw" would flow through the continuation rules to see how to resolve.

The latter could result in the thrower validly claiming they acknowledged and stopped play, and the subsequent 'drop' would not result in a turnover.

[commitch]

I suspect we may not be picturing the same events...

Forward motion followed by the disc moving forward (whether release was intended, or not), is a throw.

Forward motion stopped, throwing motion stopped, and the disc then tumbling downwards, is not a throw.

Change "downwards" to "forwards" in the second one that is what I am picturing, as that would be equivalent to a fake and an unintended release in the direction of the throwing motion, which is defined as a throw.

(and I don't think "throwing motion sopped" is what the OP is describing, noted by the phrase "in the middle of the throwing motion").

[mdmoran62]

Change "downwards" to "forwards" in the second one that is what I am picturing, as that would be equivalent to a fake and an unintended release in the direction of the throwing motion, which is defined as a throw.

(and I don't think "throwing motion sopped" is what the OP is describing, noted by the phrase "in the middle of the throwing motion").

Completely agreed, if the disc fell forwards...

I suspect we're in agreement with each other, and the difference comes from our interpretations of the OP.

If "disc falls to the ground" meant straight down, and without any of the forward momentum of the earlier part of the throw transferred to the disc, then I suggest we both agree it's not a throw.

If, however, "disc falls to the ground" means partially forward, from the momentum of the throwing motion, then I suggest we both agree it IS a throw.

... I suspect we're saying / thinking the same thing.

[commitch]

Agreed.