End zone disc check question

[matthewbourland]

Question we received by email:


It is my understanding that if a player catches a disc out of the end zone, then runs into the end zone, he must simply return to where he entered the end zone and continue play. There is no need to check the disc in to continue play after returning to that spot; or am I wrong?

[torre.hargett]

X.B (http://www.usaultimate.org/resources/officiating/rules/11th_edition_rules.aspx#X.B). "If a team gains or retains possession in the end zone that they are attacking other than by scoring a goal in accordance with rule XI, the player in possession must carry the disc directly to, and put it into play at, the spot on the goal line closest to where possession was gained."

II.R (http://www.usaultimate.org/resources/officiating/rules/11th_edition_rules.aspx#II.R). "A disc is live when players are allowed to move and the disc is subject to a turnover, but the thrower cannot make a legal pass (e.g., walking the disc to the spot where it is to be put into play). For a live disc to be put into play, the thrower must establish a pivot at the appropriate spot on the field, touch the disc to the ground, and put the disc into play."

[torre.hargett]

The general rule of thumb I've always followed (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong)...If you have to walk with the disc (i.e. bring it back to the end zone line, to the sideline where it went out of bounds, to the brick mark, etc) there needs to be a check.

[colinmci]

A "check" only happens when there is a dead disc and a stoppage of play (after a time-out, a call and discussion, etc.)

The general rule of thumb is that if you have to walk with the disc, it is a live disc situation, play does not stop, and you must touch the disc to the ground when you get to the spot you're going to put it into play.

Touching the disc to the ground to put a live disc into play is not a check. Not to be confused with a self-check (VIII.D.4&5), which occurs after a stoppage of play.

[torre.hargett]

A "check" only happens when there is a dead disc and a stoppage of play (after a time-out, a call and discussion, etc.)

The general rule of thumb is that if you have to walk with the disc, it is a live disc situation, play does not stop, and you must touch the disc to the ground when you get to the spot you're going to put it into play.

Touching the disc to the ground to put a live disc into play is not a check. Not to be confused with a self-check (VIII.D.4&5), which occurs after a stoppage of play.

Yeah, I realized my use of the word "check" was vague. I guess what I was trying to say was what you said "you must touch the disc to the ground when you get to the spot you're going to put it into play"

But thanks for the correction.

[colinmci]

XI.B If after receiving a pass outside the end zone, a player comes to a stop contacting the end zone [of attack], that player must carry the disc back to, and put it into play at, the closest spot on the goal line.


Similarly, IX.C.1) says:

If momentum carries a player out-of-bounds after landing in-bounds with possession of an in-bounds disc . . . [t]he disc is put into play at the spot on the perimeter line of the playing field where the player first went out-of-bounds (unless X.A.2 (http://www.usaultimate.org/resources/officiating/rules/11th_edition_rules.aspx#X.A.2) applies). If the player traversed the end zone being attacked, XI.B (http://www.usaultimate.org/resources/officiating/rules/11th_edition_rules.aspx#XI.B) applies.

[sethmeyer]

It's possible I don't understand something here, but I see conflicting rules about where to put the disc into play after receiving a pass outside the endzone if a player's momentum carries him into the endzone while he is running on a diagonal path. X.B seems to say he should return to the closest spot on the goal line to where he gained possession, whereas XI.B seems to say he should go to the closest spot on the goal line from where he stopped. These don't have to be the same point, as an example if he's running upfield from a handler spot across the face of the disc, he could easily end up closer to the force-side sideline than where he entered the endzone (a disadvantage). XI.B is more specific, so that should overrule X.B, but it gives a weird interpretation (to me). Is my analysis correct?

X.B: If a team gains or retains possession in the end zone that they are attacking other than by scoring a goal in accordance with rule XI, the player in possession must carry the disc directly to, and put it into play at, the spot on the goal line closest to where possession was gained.

vs.

XI.B: If after receiving a pass outside the end zone, a player comes to a stop contacting the end zone, that player must carry the disc back to, and put it into play at, the closest spot on the goal line.

[mavelon]

Similar question: In the case of an uncotested foul in the endzone, when is defense and offense allowed to move?

I believe a check is required by the defense before the disc becomes live, then the hanlder is allowed to walk the disc back to the goal line during which players may move, then the handler must offer the disc to the marker or ground tap the disc and establish a pivot before throwing the disc.

Also, how is the check indicated by the defense? Is it done by tapping the dead disc on the ground with his hand? What if it is in the hands of the offense? Should the offense put the disc back on the ground and allow the defense to tap it, then pick it back up and walk to the goal line?

Thanks,

Craig

[sethmeyer]

Here are the steps to do when resolving an uncontested receiving foul (called by the offense) in the endzone. I'll assume we're not worried about unacknowledged calls that occurred before the throwing motion.

0) If the foul caused the player to lose possession of the disc (e.g. a strip) then XI.A.2 applies and it's a goal. If not, go to step (1).

1) XVI.C.2.b applies and so "play stops" but then a specific rule (receiving foul) overrides the rest of the rule.

2) XVI.H.3.b (receiving foul) applies and so "the fouled player gains possession at the spot on the playing field closest to the spot of the infraction". Note that the endzone is part of the "playing field" (but not the "playing field proper").

3) X.C applies "If a team gains or retains possession of a dead disc in the end zone that they are attacking, the disc is checked into a live state where the infraction occurred, and the thrower then proceeds according to X.B."

4) The check is described in VIII.D.3 and "the player determined to be in possession offers the disc to the marker for a check". In this case "the marker" is any defensive player within 3 meters, so the player who committed the foul is certainly close enough (no "offensive self-check"). The disc then becomes "live" and so all the other players on the field can move.

5) X.B states that "the player in possession must carry the disc directly to, and put it into play at, the spot on the goal line closest to where possession was gained." Note that since the disc was just turned over (a rare "double turnover" since the pass was incomplete - turnover 1 - but then the disc is awarded to the previous offense - turnover 2), XIV.2 applies and "directly after a turnover ... the stall may not be initiated before a pivot is established".

6) Because the disc is "live" at this point, XIII.B applies and "the thrower must establish a pivot at the [front of the endzone], touch the disc to the ground, and put it into play". Note that THIS IS NOT A CHECK, the thrower must "touch the disc to the ground".

Does that help? (Anyone else can, of course, correct me if I missed something.)

[commitch]

X.B: If a team gains or retains possession in the end zone that they are attacking other than by scoring a goal in accordance with rule XI, the player in possession must carry the disc directly to, and put it into play at, the spot on the goal line closest to where possession was gained.

vs.

XI.B: If after receiving a pass outside the end zone, a player comes to a stop contacting the end zone, that player must carry the disc back to, and put it into play at, the closest spot on the goal line.These are different situations. X.B is covering gaining possession IN the endzone (resolved foul, picking up a turned disc, etc) while XI.B is covering catching a disc OUT of the endzone then running in.

[commitch]

Similar question: In the case of an uncotested foul in the endzone, when is defense and offense allowed to move?

I believe a check is required by the defense before the disc becomes live, then the hanlder is allowed to walk the disc back to the goal line during which players may move, then the handler must offer the disc to the marker or ground tap the disc and establish a pivot before throwing the disc.You are correct that players can move once the defensive check occurs, but one small note is that the rules say that the handler must establish a pivot and ground tap, offering the disc to the marker for check actually isn't an option, despite being what happens probably 95% of the time.
Also, how is the check indicated by the defense? Is it done by tapping the dead disc on the ground with his hand? What if it is in the hands of the offense? Should the offense put the disc back on the ground and allow the defense to tap it, then pick it back up and walk to the goal line?Since you are describing an uncontested foul, the defender will be close enough to touch the disc. The offensive player presents the disc to the defense, who taps it and announces disc in. Then the first part of your post happens (player going to line, etc, etc).

[tommaroon]

An uncontested foul in the end zone. A defensive check occurs at the point of the foul. The disk becomes "live" and the offense gets the disk and takes it to the closest point on the goal line. Other players can now move as well.

Questions:
1. once the disk becomes live, can the defense start stalling?
2. If so, where does the marker need to be in order to initiate the stall count? Can the marker follow the live disk to the goal line while stalling or does the marker have to initiate the stall count at the spot where they think pivot will be.

[commitch]

An uncontested foul in the end zone. A defensive check occurs at the point of the foul. The disk becomes "live" and the offense gets the disk and takes it to the closest point on the goal line. Other players can now move as well.

Questions:
1. once the disk becomes live, can the defense start stalling?
2. If so, where does the marker need to be in order to initiate the stall count? Can the marker follow the live disk to the goal line while stalling or does the marker have to initiate the stall count at the spot where they think pivot will be.The defense cannot start stalling until the thrower establishes a pivot on the goal line.

while this isn't crystal clear in the rules, it is supported by the rules. this is technically following a turn (an uncontested foul in the endzone would mean there was an incomplete pass, which is a turnover, followed by the original offense being awarded the disc after a foul resolution), thus...following a turn, you cannot stall the disc until the thrower establishes a pivot). while this won't change in the next revision of the rules, it will be made more clear to avoid confusion.